Costapalmate Fronds

[Kathy]

There have been a couple of questions in a couple of threads lately asking "What is Costapalmate?"

I think I understand this term (maybe someone can post the definition again), but when I was first learning it was a difficult thing to picture in my head from just word descriptions.  I had to really seek out palms to try to understand.  I thought it would be educational for many here, lurkers and maybe some members and myself, to show photos of the costapalmate fronds, especially the UNDERSIDE,  of many palms.  It would also be educational for me to have a list all in one place of many costapalmate palm genus & species.  It would also help sharpen ID skills for many.  What is costapalmate?  So list 'em and show 'em guys & gals!

Maybe someone has a photo of the underside of this one (my camara is on the blink), obviously one of my fav's & still doing well after 24F, and which I understand is costapalmate:

Sabal mauritiiformis

[MattyB]

Sabal palmetto in Lemon Grove, CA

Strongly costapalmate.

[Howeadypsis]

you know i have no idea what you're talking about!

[Walter John]

(Howeadypsis @ Jan. 31 2007,04:54)

QUOTE

you know i have no idea what you're talking about!

Hi Larry

Costapalmate leaves are simply a combo look of palmate (fan) and pinnate (feather). You see this with Sabals. Pretty much a fan shaped leaf which is mostly split naturally. How's that ?

[Kathy]

(Wal @ Jan. 30 2007,15:31)

QUOTE

(Howeadypsis @ Jan. 31 2007,04:54)

QUOTE

you know i have no idea what you're talking about!

Hi Larry

Costapalmate leaves are simply a combo look of palmate (fan) and pinnate (feather). You see this with Sabals. Pretty much a fan shaped leaf which is mostly split naturally. How's that ?

Someone else can even add more to this definition, but as I understand it (correct me please), palmate looks like your hand and was first in the evolutionary timeline;  costapalmate is mid-way between palmate and pinnate and has the midrib extending out onto the segment area (poor wording -- help!);  and of course pinnate looks like a feather.

Don't know what this palm is, but it's beautiful and costapalmate I do believe, as you can see the midrib (center thick line on each frond) extending out (experts, please correct me as needed -- just fumbling here!) --

Experts - am I correct?

So Larry, go look at the backside of your palms and take some pics for us !

[Utopia Palms]

Spot on Wal,

I think Kathy would also like some photos as well I will try to list some later also maybe a list of species with this type of leaf as well.

[MattyB]

Kathy, looks like your pic is of a Pritchardia sp.  It's beautiful.  Not considered Costapalmate though.

[Kathy]

(MattyB @ Jan. 30 2007,16:10)

QUOTE

Kathy, looks like your pic is of a Pritchardia sp.  It's beautiful.  Not considered Costapalmate though.

Thank you.  That's why I need some more education on this!

[Kathy]

Now I'm confused, per PACSOA:

"Pritchardia, Genus Description:

Pritchardia are erect, solitary medium sized unarmed monoecious fan palms up to 40 metres tall, (such as P. schattaueri ) with trunks up to 200mm thick ( P. waialealeana ) Leaves are costapalmate, with blades regularly divided into bifid ended reduplicate segments.... "

Yet I've found conflicting info on other websites.  When I see that midrib, isn't that the largest clue?

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Kathy,

The best example of costapalmate is Hyphane the Costa is the midrib of the leaf which droops down, and is not flat like in other fan leaves also many of the sabals are costapalmate as well, so what you are looking for is the dip in the midrib of the fan leaf.

Hope this helps.

Clayton.

[mike453]

Clayton,

Is Kerridoxa elegans considered palmate or costapalmate? I'm not sure about this one.

                      Thank you, Mike

[MattyB]

I'm pretty sure that Kerridoxa is a classic palmate leaf.  Now as far as Pritchardia goes, I guess some of the species leaves have a diamond type shape that could be called weakly costapalmate.  I'll defer to the experts, 'cause I ain't one of 'em.

[Utopia Palms]

Hi mike,

Its palmate; if you can see a droop in the center of the leaf its costapalmate,They can be of varying depths from strong (deep) through to fine (shallow).I would recomend that you get Genera palmarum this will help you a lot.

Clayton.

[chris.oz]

(Utopia Palms @ Jan. 30 2007,18:25)

QUOTE

Hi mike,

Its palmate; if you can see a droop in the center of the leaf its costapalmate,They can be of varying depths from strong (deep) through to fine (shallow).I would recomend that you get Genera palmarum this will help you a lot.

Clayton.

Check out Lodoicea,  costapalmate:

[mike453]

Thanks everyone for the help, and Clayton, I saw your recommendation for the book in the other thread. It will be got

                  Regards, Mike

[mike453]

Dang, IPS is sold out of it. Anyone know of any other US sources for Genera palmarum?

                                Thanks, Mike

[chris.oz]

(mike453 @ Jan. 30 2007,18:37)

QUOTE

Dang, IPS is sold out of it. Anyone know of any other US sources for Genera palmarum?

                                Thanks, Mike

Mike

Suggest you wait for the new edition,  its supposed to be imminent.  Some Big changes will be in it.,   dont buy the old one unless you are a history student !

[Kathy]

(Utopia Palms @ Jan. 30 2007,17:53)

QUOTE

Hi Kathy,

The best example of costapalmate is Hyphane the Costa is the midrib of the leaf which droops down, and is not flat like in other fan leaves also many of the sabals are costapalmate as well, so what you are looking for is the dip in the midrib of the fan leaf.

Hope this helps.

Clayton.

Thank you.  Yes, that helps.

I'm still confused about Pritchardia though.

Why does some literature say they are costapalmate (per my post above, PACSOA) and some say that they are palmate?  Do both exist within the genus?

[Kathy]

(Utopia Palms @ Jan. 30 2007,16:06)

QUOTE

Spot on Wal,

I think Kathy would also like some photos as well I will try to list some later also maybe a list of species with this type of leaf as well.

Yes, I think this would help many of us!  Photos and lists from those who know --

[bgl]

My little contribution - closeup of a Lodoicea maldivica frond.

[chris.oz]

(Kathy @ Jan. 30 2007,19:58)

QUOTE

(Utopia Palms @ Jan. 30 2007,17:53)

QUOTE

Hi Kathy,

The best example of costapalmate is Hyphane the Costa is the midrib of the leaf which droops down, and is not flat like in other fan leaves also many of the sabals are costapalmate as well, so what you are looking for is the dip in the midrib of the fan leaf.

Hope this helps.

Clayton.

Thank you.  Yes, that helps.

I'm still confused about Pritchardia though.

Why does some literature say they are costapalmate (per my post above, PACSOA) and some say that they are palmate?  Do both exist within the genus?

In the page carrying the description of Pritchardia in Beccari and Rock it does not say that Pritchardia are costapalmate.

However, it appears to me that P. pacifica is.

[Kris]

Dear Kathy  

That is nice thread topic that you have inisiated,even iam

learning few terminologys from you guys.though the

explaniation is bit confussing.but wal's comments looks

bit understandable to me,and seems easy too !

Thanks for the topic,and iam closely watching this thread.

As Sabal Sp happens to be my favouriates_cabbage palm,

sabal mexicana & sabal riverside..

Love,

Kris.

[bgl]

I like Wal's explanation as well, and assuming that's correct, I have a hard time understanding how Pritchardia fronds can be considered to be costapalmate!?

Here's a Sabal mauritiiformis frond.

[Utopia Palms]

Hi all,

Thank you for the great photos Bo!

Hi Chris,

As mentioned Pritchardia are not considered Costapalmate I don’t think you fully understand yet?

Here are some photos, I hope they can explain better than I can; note the midrib and the angle of the leaves that come from the midrib.

Here is a photo of Sabal mauritiiformis.

[Utopia Palms]

One more of the same,

[Utopia Palms]

This is livistona sp Cape River; sorry did not have a chance to track down new name.

Not all of the Livistonia’s have Costapinate leaves.

I’m sure that some of the other forum members have some photos of some Sabals or Hyphane showing this trait?

Clayton.

[Utopia Palms]

And one more,

[chris.oz]

Well the confusion is not surprising.... According to Scott Zona in "Chuniophoenix in Cultivation" October 1998 issue of Principes, Vol 42, No 4 Journal of the International Palm Society it states:

"Both species possess costapalmate leaves. The costa extends briefly into the blade, but the leaf is noteworthy in lacking a hastula".

Have a look at photos of Chuniophoenix and see whether you think it fits the "costapalmate" definition being promoted here.

There are lots of examples,   and maybe its true to say  that there are degrees of costapalmate,  strongly costapalmate .... like Sabal and weak, like Chuniophoenix .     It depends on whether the  petiole [costa] extends into the blade  at all and to what extent???

[chris.oz]

Just checking my sources on Pritchardia,  In the most modern Reference work done on the genus,  by Wagner,  Herbst, and Sohmer, 1990 Manual of the Flowering Plants of Hawai'i, University of Hawaii Press and Bishop Museum Press, Honolulu,  Pritchardia are described as "shortly costapalmate"

In his description of Pritchardia mitiaroana,  John Dransfield,  Principes, 39(1) 1995 the species is described as: "briefly costapalmate"  

In his description of P. waialealeana Read, Principes, 32 1988 the species is described as having a : "blade costapalmate"

I could go through all the references,  but  suffice it to say,  the description of costapalmate must be qualified, because of its variance.

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Chris,

Well there you go, you learn something new every day but I’m sorry to tell you that im not the one you should be talking to as I am no ‘expert’ either, maybe talk to the people that you have quoted, Also ask them about the clumping pritchardia as well.

Ps be prepared to learn something new. Also it is not a good practice to copy and list a botanical paper with out approval. Also ask about the heel.

Ps do me a favor and go out and measure the sinus on every lamina, mark one to start and go all the way around to the place were you first started and list these measurements also note the age of the palm and the species.

Clayton.

[chris.oz]

(Utopia Palms @ Jan. 31 2007,05:17)

QUOTE

Hi Chris,

Well there you go, you learn something new every day but I’m sorry to tell you that im not the one you should be talking to as I am no ‘expert’ either, maybe talk to the people that you have quoted, Also ask them about the clumping pritchardia as well.

Ps be prepared to learn something new. Also it is not a good practice to copy and list a botanical paper with out approval. Also ask about the heel

Clayton.

No worries,  but as far as I am concerned when papers are published and books written,  they are in the public domain and may be quoted, as long as the full reference is given.  I purchased  the Principes references from the IPS.   Should one wish to quote a personal comment then that is a different matter and permission must be sought.

Whats at stake here is that Kathy has twice asked for clarification as to whether Pritchardia are costapalmate.  I think we have to justify whether it is or isnt by reference to those who described the genus/species.  

Whilst descriptions are not cast in stone,  eg.  Beccari and Rock dont describe Pritchardia as costapalmate,  while later botanists do.

There are many descriptions of palms that gather dust as discredited or superceded scientific claims.

However, I apologise if I have offended anyone wrt this topic.

[Walter John]

Nobody is offended Chris and thanks on behalf of the rest of the players for your bravado.

Now, firstly, if somebody said Pritchardia is costapalmate, then they are wrong. Let's drive the spike here and now. and Clayton, you are an expert, you just haven't written anything, I don't think, if you do, I'll be your editor, I'll take my cost out in palms thanks.

Let's break it down in simple terms, costapalmate is not unlike your hand, your wrist is the petiole, your hand is the leaf, there's the broad part and the fingers. Now a palmate hand might belong to say, Ian Thorpe, just paddles, or an english bowler, nothing happening there.

The point is, there's usually no cut and dried explanantions. Palm scientists don't like leeway, whilst gardeners of palms know better. We just don't write about it, we do it instead.  Things like "you can't grow that species in Melbourne, Australia mate" or in La Habra Califoirnia or wherever, bulldust I say.  

Palm growing is unique, there's buggerall doing it, we are saving something important and beautiful by planting across the planet. Give yourselves a pat on the back with your costapalmate hand and thank your lucky stars you have this delightful passion we call a palm loving disease. Let's hope we don't find a cure.

Amen.

[Howeadypsis]

i'm still none the wiser i will have to look at the pics later when i'm on the PC. I don't think my Dypsis is costapalmate,its pinnate i believe

[ruskinPalms]

Is Bismarckia considered costapalmate?

[chris.oz]

(Wal @ Jan. 31 2007,07:26)

QUOTE

The point is, there's usually no cut and dried explanantions.

For botanists most explanations are cut and dried !!!

OH Wal I guess that was the joke eh !

[Walter John]

(chris.oz @ Jan. 31 2007,21:45)

QUOTE

(Wal @ Jan. 31 2007,07:26)

QUOTE

The point is, there's usually no cut and dried explanantions.

For botanists most explanations are cut and dried !!!

OH Wal I guess that was the joke eh !

I hate those melbourne storm players

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

:laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:   well  done  wal,  go  Manly..            

[Walter John]

(Howeadypsis @ Jan. 31 2007,21:39)

QUOTE

i'm still none the wiser i will have to look at the pics later when i'm on the PC. I don't think my Dypsis is costapalmate,its pinnate i believe

What's wise got to do with it ?

Fan palms and feather palms. Bizzie is a fan palm and who really gives a you know what if it's part leg spinner or part Ian Thorpe.

Somebody help me here, where's palmazon when you really need him ?

Costafine town it's a fine town

I'm coming home.

Dean, it wasn't my fault, they made me do it.

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

 :laugh: my fingers  are  good  but  not 2300km long. :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

[Walter John]

I hope that's cleared things up for Kathy.

If I lay here

If I just lay here

Would you lie with me and just forget the world?

Forget what we're told

Before we get too old

Show me a garden that's bursting into life