What rare angel is the least owned?

[michindi]

I was just curious to see what angel is the true rare find.

[michindi]

If I left one out just put it in your post. And if you have more then one please vote twice.

[kalare]

Clarion...those aren't that rare compared to it

[moonpod]

Ya know, it's funny looking at that poll.

Chrysurus? Multicolor? You've gotta be kidding me.

It's gotta be Kingii, Pepps or Clarions

[DeltecRules]

My collins is the rare angel I have in my reef. Whats even more rare is that it eats :)

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/524/104218mini-106-0617_IMG.JPG

[sixxer]

I would say the Clarions and Limbaughs (sp?) Angels would be the rarest kept in personal tanks.

[Kahuna Tuna]

What Moonpod said. Those three are either rare, deadly to collect and rare, or protected. That makes them pretty much non existant in our tanks.

[Terryz_]

I would vote for Kingi... Beautiful fish...

[michindi]

Sorry guys.. I did forget about the Calrions.

[RGBMatt]

Is this poll supposed to be asking which ones people have, or which ones we think are the most rare?

[michindi]

Which ones people have

[moonpod]

That being the case Peppermints. I know there are a few out there. They are very, very pricey, very, very delicate, BUT there are some out there.

Bandits as far as I know die in captivity. If they were hardier they'd be everywhere, b/c frankly, they aren't exactly "rare" in Hawaiian waters so...

Chrysurus, Collins, Multicolor, Goldens, Interruptus, Joculators, Resplendens, Venustus, blueline, conspics, all come in regularly.

Hotamatua I haven't seen, nor heard of in captivity so if you've seen one of those.....

Kingii, ditto.

There are some old clarions still around, and probably some from that last batch that was brought in illegally.

[Razzagas]

what is the species for the kingii angel?

[moonpod]

Apolomichthys kingii

[jmicky41]

Proably the rarest angel that is legal to keep is the Clipperton Angel - Holocanthus limbaughi . They only come from the tiny Clipperton Atoll - which is in the middle of nowhere. The Marine Center had one once with the price listed as "stupendously expensive". Some other rare angels are protected from collection such as the Chaetadontaplus Balinae.

[gunnwong]

I think the Japanese Pygmy Angel(Centropyge interruptus) is the rarest one.
and it very pricy too ( $1400 at marinecentral.com)

[moonpod]

interruptus angels are relatively commonly owned now. Shoot Maximus has two of 'em.

jmicky you ever heard of anyone who actually has a clipperton angel?

Tiger/Kingi angel in a shop in Japan
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/files/apolkingi17cmht-2_193.jpg

[NexDog]

Peppermint has to be in the top 3. The price tag is usually around $10,000 for one (at least here in Japan).

Are any of these considered rare:

http://natyu.ne.jp/fish/sakana01.html

Those first two I've never seen before and the price tag is about $1200.

[moonpod]

Holocanthus africanus. The 2nd pix is a younger one than the first one. The first pix is a subadult, the second is a juvi. The full grown adults are pretty blah looking.

[NexDog]

Like a lot of Angels, pretty when juvies but blander when adult. Not ready to pay that kind of cash for a fish anyway. :)

[Freed]

.

[NexDog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7147277#post7147277 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Freed
.
A man of small words. :D

[copps]

Kingii and africanus recently were available last fall... Tom at Marine Aquatics got them along with some gem tangs and I spoke to a loacl distributor that saw them pop up... I think the retail on the kingii's were around $6000, while the africanus were a little above a grand...

Hotamatua has also shown up here and there from Easter Island, with even Live Aquaria offering a few on their site at a pricey $1500... seems like years ago they were more available at less than $1000...

One I've never personally seen or seen available is C. narcosis...

Also not mentioned are Genicanthus personatus, Centopyge nahackyi and Centropyge debelius (although this does become available)...

Clipperton's I've never seen available, although they have one at the Waikiki Aquarium I took a few shots of and spoke with Bruce Carlson about...

http://xs76.xs.to/pics/06151/clipperton.jpg (http://xs.to)

[moonpod]

Did the kingii really show up? I asked about pricing and never got a response. They are supposed to be hardy so despite the price being steep if it's a tough fish...

[copps]

According to Tom it did, although I can't verify it as I did not see it or order it obviously...:D I wanna say the price was $5800... looking at it from a supply/demand perspective I would have thought the price to be more... I was surprised to see the africanus relatively cheap and this was substantiated by the distributor I spoke with...

[moonpod]

The africanus may be rare, but it's so plain looking as an adult.

The kingii I think is pretty cool looking. Love those tiger stripes.

[copps]

Yeah uniqueness could take you far... I met with Frank Baensch at his facility and home last year and he talked about how interuptus were outselling resplendens unbelievably... they're both cool looking but the interuptus is just so unique whereas the resplendens has it's relatives from the mainlands...:D

Also not brought up are the different hybrids... I believe the kingii hybridizes with trimaculatus (flagfin)... I wanna say there's a pic in the Scott Michael book... and then you've got rare varieties of the common fish such as the all yellow and white xanthic regal angel...

[moonpod]

Oh yeah...that xanthic regal....yummy.....

[Maximus]

Great thread guys! What I would do to have a debelius. Would anyone know where to get one? Copps?:)

[BGreene]

Rare= Centropyge abei Allen, Young & Colin 2006

[H.Tanaka]

It is just a 3cm long Centropyge boyei. The first specimen I saw (at a retailer in Tokyo) in 1993. Until recently it was called Paracentropyge boylei, but now it is included in Centropyge again, and venusta and multifasciata, too.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CentropygeBoylei3cm.jpg

[NexDog]

H.Tanaka - are you in Miyazaki? I saw your hospital's website and it seems to be. I'm in Miyakonojo. :)

If you know of any good coral/fish shops in Miyazaki, please let me know!!

[H.Tanaka]

NexDog,
You know my clinic !? Miyakonojo !! How near we are ! It takes some one hour by car.....
Yes, I know one marine fish-coral (and freshwater fish) shop in Miyazaki City. It is "Papi To Suzu" (they will close at 20:00). Do you speak Japanese ? When you can come I will take you there by car and it is near my home.
Well, where do you come from ?

[NexDog]

I just saw your home page under your WWW button and saw the Miyazaki address. :)

I'm English, living here in Miyakonojo for about 8 years. My Japanese is okay - probably not as good as your English! Maybe I wil drive up to Miyazaki with my wife in a week or two so would be happy to meet you, check out your tanks and go to Papi To Suzu. I will PM you. :)

[Kahuna Tuna]

Also not brought up are the different hybrids... I believe the kingii hybridizes with trimaculatus (flagfin)... I wanna say there's a pic in the Scott Michael book...

Thats right. Michael's book is a great angelfish reference, lots of hybrid pics in there, the best angel book IMO.

[virginiabreeze6]

How about the Chaetodontoplus conspicillatus

[moonpod]

conspics are relatively common vs the others being bandied about.

[jmicky41]

Moonpod, how is your conspic doing. I was at the LFS yesterday and they had a 7" and a perfect 3" (already sold). Good thing the 3" was sold - I might not have been able to resist.

[moonpod]

I had a tank temp dip in late feb when I was out of town. Everything more than 2-3" died. Everything under that size regardless of species did just fine. Weird and quite brutal. The conspic WAS doing great. I now have a big tank full of rinky dink fish. But I suppose that's ok.

A 3" conspic is a buy on sight fish. They practically never come in at that size.

[jmicky41]

www.oldtownaquarium.com

The blue around the eyes and lips was just starting to come in.

[moonpod]

NICE....when those things come in at the wholesalers in L.A. they're already spoken for.....

Anyways as I said, there's nothing more than 2-3" in length in my tank now except for a yellow belly hippo tang that's an absolute wus....

[bandedangel]

I have a banded that's alive! I know were the kingi pic. originated from, also recently available were a few clipperton's. Debelius are rarely collected and are for the stupidly wealthy "LOL" as so for the peppermint and only in the far east. Personnatus have not been collected for numerous years and even then I believe some folks got in some trouble? and the Nahackyi are never collected. If Marine Aquatics had any kingi's & africanus, I wonder why he couldn't deliver??? think about it folks!

[bandedangel]

Let me correct myself,... I was told by a reliable sorce that somebody was blowing smoke as far as kingi's & africanus beeing available in this country.

[H.Tanaka]

How about the Black Angelfish (Chaetodontoplus niger) ? It is known from southern Japan and southeast China Sea, with only a few specimens. It was just photographed also in Ogasawara, as shown below for the first record. No aquarium specimen is known.

http://koba-tan.way-nifty.com/topics/cat20488/index.html

[bandedangel]

That's a rare one, I know of a few that were collected but never made it past a few weeks

[nbd13]

has anyone ever seen a Armitagi Angelfish?

Nick

[jmicky41]

I saw an Armitage angel a few months ago - it was kinda ugly. It looked like a flagfin with muddy markings around the egdes.

[bandedangel]

Ya there not that nice, they come from the Maldives and some people think they're actually some sort of hybrid??

[nbd13]

intresting, thanks.

what about the genicanthus personatus aka the masked angel fish.

i have not heard of anyone keeping these with long term success in captivity.

Nick

[H.Tanaka]

"Apolemichthys armitagei" is a hybrid of A. trimaculatus (Flagfin) x xanthurus (Indian Smoke), and then it comes mainly from around Maldives, but they are duskier than trimaculatus and some parts are black. They are available on rare occasion in Japan but too expensive for most aquarists.

Genicanthus personatus is a hard to keep for a long period, because they do not accept any food. Some juveniles were raised at Waikiki Aquarium several years ago; tiny juveniles of the genus can be kept successfully, but large adults are much difficult.

[bandedangel]

Armitagei actually show up here in the U.S. a few times a year.

I believe there are a few personatus in Japan. I know for a fact that there's a pair in Hawaii. I think the Waikiki Aquarium has a pair also.

[revclyburn]

By far,

the leader is the Peppermint angel. I've been checking that one angel out for months now. And once Nexdog gets rich and sends me one, I'll probably be the only one on the east coast with one. Lol, sorry, but I've been buggying him about that fish for months, thought he might want to get me off his back about it and just send me one, hint, lol

But no really, how could you say no to these:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/82476Pboylei.gif

we all would be drooling and fighting over them


RevClyburn

[H.Tanaka]

I saw the color morph of Centropyge bispinosa (10cm) from Samoa, and it cost some 600000 Yen in Tokyo some 20 years ago. After someone's purchase it turned a normal coloration in 4-5 weeks. Not all of color variants will turn norm one, however.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CeBis10cmSa.jpg

Centropyge aurantia (Golden Angel), 5cm from Indonesia. Some 20 years ago it was a rarely sold fish that commanded a very high price but now it is fairly popular, but most will die suddenly without any sign.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CeAur5cm.jpg

[NexDog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7235382#post7235382 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by revclyburn
By far,

the leader is the Peppermint angel. I've been checking that one angel out for months now. And once Nexdog gets rich and sends me one, I'll probably be the only one on the east coast with one. Lol, sorry, but I've been buggying him about that fish for months, thought he might want to get me off his back about it and just send me one, hint, lol

But no really, how could you say no to these:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/82476Pboylei.gif

we all would be drooling and fighting over them


RevClyburn
Heh, I should grab a pair and try and breed them. :D

[triggerfish1976]

I would say Peppermints are the rarest. The last time I checked there were only a handful in captivity and they were mainly in Japanese aquariums.
They are rarely collected and are very difficult to maintain as they tend to not eat prepared foods very well.
I have pretty much seen every angel on the list in a LFS at one point or another but the Peppermint.

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7229876#post7229876 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Maximus
Great thread guys! What I would do to have a debelius. Would anyone know where to get one? Copps?:)

The local guy that gets Mauritius shipments including gem tangs and chrysogaster clowns has had debelius available to him before, but for astronimical prices so he passed as their demand is little... unfortunately most peeple who could appreciate them don't have the cash... and I fit into that category!:D

I'm sure Hiroyuki can comment on this in this thread, as many of the available images of this species are from him!


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7230086#post7230086 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BGreene
Rare= Centropyge abei Allen, Young & Colin 2006

Brian great to see you here! What a soup of info we have here... Can you elaborate on this guy? The only thing I know is that it was deep and found in Sulawesi, Indo...

Also, have you ever seen any flame/potter hybrids or the blue phase of potter's that Hiroyuki photographed in Japan? I remember getting all excited when I saw a half-black/lemonpeel hybrid (common in the trade) while diving in Micronesia... LD I actually saw a blue potter's available on a wholesaler's list a few years ago for $600... the LFS owner asked me about it, saying "what the **** is a blue potter's?" :D Also, beautiful score on the small goldenback trigger... :) Here's one of the blue potter's images from Hiroyuki Tanaka... woo hoo!
http://xs77.xs.to/pics/06162/blue_potters.jpg (http://xs.to)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7230219#post7230219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H.Tanaka
It is just a 3cm long Centropyge boyei. The first specimen I saw (at a retailer in Tokyo) in 1993. Until recently it was called Paracentropyge boylei, but now it is included in Centropyge again, and venusta and multifasciata, too.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CentropygeBoylei3cm.jpg

Does that mean that Paracentropyge is officially a subgenus? This is my "Poor man's peppermint" Centropyge multifasciatus...:D I saw the pair that Frank Baensch of RCT Hawaii had at his facility that he successfully bred before he offered them for sale... I immediately thought it was practice and joked about it with him... while he's got lots of secrets it's not a secret he'd love to breed the peppermints eventually... and there's no reason why it won't eventually be done...
http://xs75.xs.to/pics/06143/multi2.jpg (http://xs.to)


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7232214#post7232214 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bandedangel
Let me correct myself,... I was told by a reliable sorce that somebody was blowing smoke as far as kingi's & africanus beeing available in this country.

This did indeed turn out to be a scam and some people got taken for alot of money... actually whether or not it was a scam I guess is up in the air... but people put out thousands and no fish were produced...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7234923#post7234923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H.Tanaka
"Apolemichthys armitagei" is a hybrid of A. trimaculatus (Flagfin) x xanthurus (Indian Smoke), and then it comes mainly from around Maldives, but they are duskier than trimaculatus and some parts are black. They are available on rare occasion in Japan but too expensive for most aquarists.

Genicanthus personatus is a hard to keep for a long period, because they do not accept any food. Some juveniles were raised at Waikiki Aquarium several years ago; tiny juveniles of the genus can be kept successfully, but large adults are much difficult.

One of these armitageis is available at www.phishybusiness.com for $900... the Marine Center had one I believe about year ago for $1500...

A. trimaculatus also hybridizes with our buddy A. kingi... that's got to be up there with rare... ever seen one Hiroyuki?

Here's a shot of the juvenile personatus that was raised by the Waikiki Aquarium... I spoke to Charles Delbeek about this and I believe he said it carpet surfed... seriously... I think they've lost their adults too, but I don't remember from my last visit there... I did see the adults they had years ago and they had lost a considerable amount of color... I've since seen another wild captive pair that was just stunning though!
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06171/Genicanthus_personatus.jpg (http://xs.to)

[copps]

How about Saint Paul's Rocks Queen angels! Can anyone comment on where these have been available? This is just nuts... I love these things...
Why do I think of Smurfs when I see this guy?:D
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06171/ciliaris1.jpg (http://xs.to)
All white morph...
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06171/ciliaris2.jpg (http://xs.to)
Koi variety... I'm no geneticist but this has to be the same reason we see this color in inbred koi...
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06171/ciliaris3.jpg (http://xs.to)
blue morphs...
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06171/ciliaris4.jpg (http://xs.to)
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06171/ciliaris5.jpg (http://xs.to)

[triggerfish1976]

Does anyone know of any place where I could get a conspiculatus angel besides The Marine Center?
I don't think any of the LFS in my area would ever get one in even if I special ordered.

[copps]

Tom at Marineaquatics.net gets them, although recently they've been tough to come by... he's also in Atlanta not too far from you...

[triggerfish1976]

I acctually called Tom and he said that he is not able to get them anymore and does not know when he will find another source. He was acctually the first person I called.
There is a place up in Chicago called Old Town Aquarium that has one and are willing to ship but I was unable to find any reference to them on this website. They also use DHL for shipping which worried me.

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7238679#post7238679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by triggerfish1976

There is a place up in Chicago called Old Town Aquarium that has one and are willing to ship but I was unable to find any reference to them on this website. They also use DHL for shipping which worried me.

Did you see that they were referenced earlier in this thread? Do they guarentee live arrival? If it's that 3" one that is shaaaweet!:)

[triggerfish1976]

I hadn't read the entire thread so do I feel dumb. I ran a search on them and no one has had any experience mail ordering from them.
They no longer have the 3" but they do have a 5" I am thinking about buying.
They stated they have a 7 day health guarantee but who knows if they really stick by it given the price of the fish and it being mail order.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7237216#post7237216 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by triggerfish1976
I would say Peppermints are the rarest. The last time I checked there were only a handful in captivity and they were mainly in Japanese aquariums.
They are rarely collected and are very difficult to maintain as they tend to not eat prepared foods very well.
I have pretty much seen every angel on the list in a LFS at one point or another but the Peppermint.

Find an Angel thats similar ranges in the wild as a peppermint, that is ugly, and I bet its the rarest out there.

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7238870#post7238870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley

Find an Angel thats similar ranges in the wild as a peppermint, that is ugly, and I bet its the rarest out there.

How about C. narcosis... the infamous "I forgot I collected it!" deepwater species!:D
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06172/Centropyge_narcosis.jpg (http://xs.to)

Also, anyone ever see what I call the "Atlantic clarion"... a queen angel /rock beauty hybrid... it's amazing how rare this fish is despite how common it's parents are...
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06172/ciliaris-tricolor_hybrid.jpg (http://xs.to)

[triggerfish1976]

Copps,

I have to agree on the Narcosis. I had forgotten about that one.

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7239362#post7239362 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by triggerfish1976
Copps,

I have to agree on the Narcosis. I had forgotten about that one.

Did you intend that pun?:D The story behind it's naming is that Pyle had nitrogen narcosis so bad he forgot he had collected them... I believe these were collected deeper than boylei, but don't have my references with me...

[triggerfish1976]

Yeah I did. I had accutally heard the same history on the name.

[copps]

Ah okay... I forgot who I heard the story from... ... ... :D :rolleyes: :o Okay it's a dead horse...

[revclyburn]

All the angels here are absolutely gorgeous. I have never seen the what or blue morph ones, stunning to say the least. And the multi spine one is one of my choices since I can't get the Peppermint angels, YET! Is there anyone out there that is actively trying to captive bred any of there angels?

And Nexdog, if you ever do that, you can definitely put my on the list as a buyer. Do you know any one there that has them, and has had any success with just keeping them?

Edwin

[NexDog]

If anyone knows, it would be Tanaka-san. :)

[Kahuna Tuna]

Also, anyone ever see what I call the "Atlantic clarion"... a queen angel /rock beauty hybrid... it's amazing how rare this fish is despite how common it's parents are...

Whoa! Thought I had seen most hybrids, that is a very cool fish.

[H.Tanaka]

Hi All,
Here is a photo of Centropyge debelius, 8cm at a retailer in Kyoto. I have four shots but it is the best. The species commands a very high price of around US$600, and scarcely imported to Japan. It was doing well in a display tank there. It is almost restricted to Mauritius and Aldabra.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CeDebe8cm.jpg

An additional shot of Centropyge potteri, 10cm at the same shop. I heard that two specimens were caught at the depth of more than 60 meters at off Kona Coast, and one of them was shipped to the US. This specimen also cots US$600.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CePot2.jpg

The third shot shows a juvenile, 3cm long Apolemichthys griffisi. Now often imported but still rare in market.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564ApolemichthysGriffisi3cm.jpg

[NexDog]

Tanaka-san, does that shop in Kyoto have a website?

[RGBMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7237999#post7237999 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
Here's a shot of the juvenile personatus that was raised by the Waikiki Aquarium... I spoke to Charles Delbeek about this and I believe he said it carpet surfed... seriously... I think they've lost their adults too, but I don't remember from my last visit there... I did see the adults they had years ago and they had lost a considerable amount of color... I've since seen another wild captive pair that was just stunning though!


Waikiki Aquarium still has a pair of personatus. I'm not sure if they're the same ones as before, though - a while ago the male was looking somewhat unhealthy and the exhibit was closed for a few weeks. Now the display is back and the fish look slightly different (but maybe I just have bad memory).

Masked angels are typically caught in the Northwestern Hawaiian islands, where they are commonly found in shallow water but can't be legally collected (unless you work for Waikiki Aquarium, obviously). However, they are also found in the main Hawaiian islands in deep water and very rarely pop up in the shallows - surprisingly the type specimen was collected near downtown Honolulu in only 80'! The logistics of collecting personatus are similar to other deepwater fish such as boylei so it's not unreasonable to expect one to turn up once in a while.

I've seen personatus in submersible videos at 300' off Oahu - I know where they are but don't have the skill to go diving for them. One of these days...

[H.Tanaka]

Hello NexDog,
No. I am so sorry that they have no web. Thename of the shop is "Earth". They are holding and selling so many species of fish and corals. Perhaps you may find the name in older issues of Marine Aquarist magazine, publishing four issues a year.

RGBMat,
I saw two females and a male there some 15 years ago, but I hear that they do not do well.

[NexDog]

Okay, shame abut that. One last thing though, can you show me any shops in Japan that do have sites? At the moment I order from Natural in Tokyo and PPM Okinawa. I know of Reef-Kuki and Splash but that is about it.

[H.Tanaka]

Ok,
Here is a importer that shows websites of so many retailers who deal marine and / or freshwater species. All the webs do not show marines only.

[H.Tanaka]

I forgot to attach, and it is here.

http://kamihata.co.jp/shop.html

[H.Tanaka]

Also check it; the owner sells many rarities.

http://www.sakitama.or.jp/crown/

[NexDog]

Just what I need - thank you!

[WayneL333]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7242504#post7242504 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H.Tanaka
Hi All,
Here is a photo of Centropyge debelius, 8cm at a retailer in Kyoto. I have four shots but it is the best. The species commands a very high price of around US$600, and scarcely imported to Japan. It was doing well in a display tank there. It is almost restricted to Mauritius and Aldabra.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CeDebe8cm.jpg

An additional shot of Centropyge potteri, 10cm at the same shop. I heard that two specimens were caught at the depth of more than 60 meters at off Kona Coast, and one of them was shipped to the US. This specimen also cots US$600.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CePot2.jpg

The third shot shows a juvenile, 3cm long Apolemichthys griffisi. Now often imported but still rare in market.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564ApolemichthysGriffisi3cm.jpg

Tanakasan,

Did you mean US$600 or US$6000? $600 doesn't seem to be that much for those rare fish. It's cheaper than Interruptus prices here in the US.

[NexDog]

That blue Potter's is awesome. Wayne - definitely not $6,000! The Interruptus is more sought after and retails at about $1000.

[LargeAngels]

Did anyone mention C. balina? Beutifull, but I believe now protected, fish.

Or Apolemichthys guezei.

[nbd13]

The cost for a Centropyge debelius in the US is about $5,000-7,000 i was quoted by 2 different dealers, one was $5000 and the other was $7,000....

Maybe the whole sale cost is $600? But i doubt that also... I am thinking more along the lines of $2,000 for wholesale cost in the US, probably more...

These were from 2 of the bigger vendors....

actually the Centropyge debelius is much more rare than the Centropyge Interruptus; most recently Interruptus have been retailing from 600-800 for wild caught specimens here in the US, actually phishybusiness is the only one that i know of bring them in a regular basis.

Interruptus are not very rare in the US market anymore... yes they are more rare than some angels, but the Debelius is much more rare in the US and for that matter the world. It commands a much higher amount than the Interruptus....

for any true rare angel nut, the debelius would be more a much more substantial find than an interruptus...

and yes i did mean $5,000-$7,000 for the cost of 1 debelius, i did not type it wrong... they do command this amount, well... this was 1 month ago, but i am assuming the price would not change over that time period...

Nick

[dvmsn]

Remember that much of your cost is in shipping. Japan is much closer to the collection points than the US

[NexDog]

Nick, I was thinking about the Potter's with the blue morph. Had no idea the debelius was so expensive!

[nbd13]

Large Angels,

http://www.bluecastleaquarium.com/pictures/fishbook/angel/cha/ballinae1.JPG

The Chaetodontoplus ballinae angel is a some what deep water species ranging from 60m to 80m (197 to 265 ft.) where it was collected off northern New South Wales, BUT off of Lord Howe is was collected from 10 to 30m (33 to 98 ft.).

You are right that it IS protected; The Australian goverment issued this.

I guess the few that have kept it reported it to be easy to keep....along the same lines as the ever popular conspic...

HTH

Nick

[nbd13]

dvmsn- true, but it does not go to Japan for that reason...

I am sure Dr. Tanaka and NexDog can attest to this,

Rare fish go to Japan simple because of the fact that the Japanese are willing to spend much more money....

That's why rare fish do not often come to the US, the collectors figure they can get 2-3 times more in the Japanese market....

I am sure shipping is probably significant, but still it will not account for the price to sky rocket like it has with the debelius. I mean fish still have to come in to the US from other places throughout the world... Like Red Sea fish...they have to come a very long way to get to the US, but if you look at the price for Red Sea stuff, it does not even compare to this...

The main reason rare fish, heck even illegally collected fish go to Japan is simple because they will pay much much more than anyone in the US.

Nick

[SDguy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7243994#post7243994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nbd13
Large Angels,

http://www.bluecastleaquarium.com/pictures/fishbook/angel/cha/ballinae1.JPG

You are right that it IS protected; The Australian goverment issued this.


Nick

Pitty, since it is definitely along the lines of rare AND beautiful.

[nbd13]

SDguy- yes, it is a shame...

Maybe someday this one will be available along with the clarion...

What i wouldn't fo to get my hands on a clarion and a ballinae...maybe some day they will start coming in....of course legally.

Nick

[SDguy]

That's so funny...I worked at a LFS back when clarions were available. I have to tell you, they really didn't turn any heads. Frankly, we didn't stock them after sitting on one for over a year. No one would buy them, and they weren't that expensive. People preferred the passer, every time, especially after comparing pictures of adult colorations.

[nbd13]

I have a sweet spot for these guys...check out this photo i found...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/Aguabeast/San%20Diego%202005%20water%20related-ish/ClarionFlame.jpg

I think this was an illegally collected one, that made it into captivity.

This clarion was brought in with 16 others...14 were confiscated, but 2 of them made it into the tanks at the Aquarium of the Pacific in Long Beach....

Nick

[copps]

I too remember those days... I'm 28 now and worked in high school at a place in Northern New Jersey... Red Sea stuff was much more expensive... asfur angels for $700 to over $1000 and clarions in the $300-$400 range...

Imagine conspics being in the $100 range in 15 years or so...:D We can dream...:cool:

I am amazed at the 10 fold price discrepency between Japan and the US for debelius... If this were the case retailers here could buy them from Japan and even after shipping and markup they'd be less than $2000...

Nice shot Nick...

[H.Tanaka]

WayneL333,
Oh, I am so sorry that I should have added one more 0 to &600,- for the Potter's. Also for Centropyge debelius, too.

A large adult Ballina Angel was once shipped to Tokyo over ten years ago but it already was DOA.

How about Genicanthus takeuchii ? It ranges the Ogasawara Islands and Marcus Island (Minami-tori-shima). First found and photographed by a famous diver Hiroshi Takeuchi and later ichthyologists from Oahu collected some in Ogasawara.
This is a tiny juvenile photographed underwater in Ogasawara (photo by a friend-diver Mori****a).


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564GeTakJ.jpg

[nbd13]

Dr. Tanaka- Has the takeuchi ever been in captivity? Are there differences betweent he male and female of this species?

thanks

Nick

[H.Tanaka]

This species has never been collected for sale, and male, female and juvenile form are all greatly different. In Ogasawara it is prohibited to collect any aquarium fishes. I will show them soon.

[nbd13]

Thanks,

Well I thought Iw ould add a few more...

The Phantom Angel (Chaetodontoplus dimidiatus)

It's funny I found a picture on the internet and guess who it's from... haha Dr. Tanaka :)

http://fins.actwin.com/marine-pics/Chaetodontoplus-dimidiatus.jpg

all I know about this species is that is was once thought to be a color morph of Chaetodontoplus melanosoma, but it was recently classified as a new species...

Dr. Tanaka any info on this? Like have any been collected?


Vanderloos' Angel (Chaetodontoplus vanderloosi),

I cannot find any pictures of this, Dr. Tanaka do you have any?

All i know is it's jet black with a white face, with a hint of orange in it. The tail is yellow and black...

supposedly the Vanderloos' and Phantom is supposed to have the same care requirments as C. melanosoma....both reaching around 8 inches or 20 cm....

again Dr. Tanaka any info you have or pictures pelase share :)

Nick

[H.Tanaka]

This is a picture of Gencanthus takeuchii, male & female. Photo by the discoverer Takeuchi. It was first discovered in 1987 and the pic was the FIRST photograph ever taken. A copy from a book "Angelfishes" 2003.
This one loves a cooler water of temperature of 20 degrees C, and found at the deoth of 20-40+ meters on the reef, and forms a harem including a dominant male and several females.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564GeTaMF.jpg

nbd,
I noticed the thread by you just before posting the pic, and wait for a while; I will show Ch. vanderloosi here. It was only recently described by Allen & Steene.
Ch. dimidiatus was also recogmized by them at the same time, therefore the genus contains 14 valid species. Ch. dimidiatus ranges Indonesia and it was collected there but no detail is known. It did not do well or feed on nothing in my tank, and finally died without sign of eating. Larger specimens of the genus seem very difficult to feed on.

[H.Tanaka]

This Chaetodontoplus vanderloosi, adult (15cm) and juvenile (3cm, inset). A photocopy from aqua, Italy.
It is known only from easternmost area of Papua New Guinea, around Milne Bay. Adults have a white area on face and head and a black tail with yellow margin. Juveiles are very similar to those of Ch. melanosoma.
I have never sen it in the aquarium trade.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564ChVanderloosi15cm.jpg

[SDguy]

OK, these fish are making the OP's list look as common as flame angels :) Thank you for the wonderful pics/info H.Tanaka

[nbd13]

Dr. Tanaka- WOW you actually owned a Ch. dimidiatus at one time?

do many of these make it into the shops in Japan? or is it rare over there?

I do not think I have heard of any coming into the US.

thanks for the info.

any more rare angels that you can think of?

Nick

[copps]

Again can anyone elaborte on the new discovery of Centropyge abei?

How about Genicanthus semicinctus found around Lord Howe...

Male...
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06173/Genicanthus_semicinctus_male.jpg (http://xs.to)
Female...
http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06173/Genicanthus_semicinctus_female.jpg (http://xs.to)

[H.Tanaka]

Thanks nbd,
I have seen and videotaped the male of Genicanthus semicinctus perhaps from Lord Howe Island at a retailer in Kanagawa some 15 years ago, and I will search the video to show clips someday if possible. It was an extra large fish. Then I could have seen the FIRST imported Debelius' Angel, too there.

[Julio]

how about a masked swallow tail from Hawaii?

[H.Tanaka]

This is Chaetodontoplus caeruleopunctatus, 11cm from the Philippines. It is restricted to the Philipines, and juveniles are seldom shipped. The juv photo was taken underwater by Garuda Igarashi, my good friend in Cebu.
It also is a poor eater.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564ChCae11cm.jpg

[BGreene]

Sorry to leave you guys hanging. Centropyge abei was very recently described from one specimen and a few sightings around 120m in Sulawesi. It has been seen before, from a submersible and the video is really cool. This species is probably more widespread, but is usually found below 500ft which is really the limit that we can push our rebreathers to. I would not be suprised if it is shallower, say 100m, at other localities.

I have never seen Genicanthus semicinctus in the wild, but I have seen Genicanthus spinus at Rapa Iti in French Polynesia.

Aloha,
Brian

[LargeAngels]

H. Tanaka: Here is my bluespot. I had it paired with a small specimen that was grown from a very small juvenile. Unfortunately I lost the smaller one to a severe eye infection resulting from skin flukes.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/11732blue_spot_angel-med.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/11732large_bluespot.jpg

[H.Tanaka]

Very nice specimen, and pics. Thank you.

[Rare Angels]

A couple years back I think the Marine Center had a Chaetodontoplus vanderloosi, I remember talking to Randy from MC and he described as fish they had exactly as a Chaetodontoplus vanderloosi looks. I should have asked for a pictures or better yet bought the fish.

[H.Tanaka]

Well, how do you think this individual ? Length 10cm.
It was kept by a friend in Miyazaki, and he bought it several years ago.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564Chmel10cm.jpg

[nbd13]

Dr. Tanaka- Very nice specimen! :)

What rare angels do you have pictures of?

thanks

Nick

[H.Tanaka]

Oh, not so many !
But I try to show ALL the photos (including not so rare ones) here one by one.

Here is a new comer to the genus Centropyge, a possible new species from Rowley Shoals. Photo courtesy by Rudie Kuiter.
It has been regarded as a varian of C. eiblii, but seemingly different in having a broad black area on posterior part of body. It looks like also C. vrolikii but has dark bands on anterior part. Some cases have orange bands there. At present it is known only from Rowley Shoals.
Now it is examined by some ichthyologists.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CeSp6cm.jpg

[nbd13]

Wow, that one looks like a nice specimen!

Do you know there range in nature?

thanks

Nick

[H.Tanaka]

nbd,
It seems restricted to Rowley Shoals, and then we suspect that it probably is new. At first I thought that it is merely a hybrid of C. eiblii and vrolikii. No aquarium specimen.

[H.Tanaka]

Juveniles on parade.

(upper)
Chaetodontoplus duboulayi, 3cm- rarely available
Ch. septentrionalis, 5cm- collected in our area on occasion, but rarely available at shops
Ch. species, 3cm; probably melanosoma

(lower)
Pygoplites diacanthus, 2.5cm; rarely available from the Red Sea
Pomacanthus chrysurus, 7cm- available on occasion
Po. asfur, 3.5cm, bred in Taiwan- fairly cheap, some $80-90, but rarely imported

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564Juvs-med.jpg

[NexDog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7263595#post7263595 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H.Tanaka
Juveniles on parade.

(upper)
Chaetodontoplus duboulayi, 3cm- rarely available

That's a Scribbled Angel? Are you saying that the really small juvs are teh ones that are rarely available? I've seen 6cm specimens often...

[H.Tanaka]

NexDog,
Yes, this is the Scribbled. I cannot see such a juvenile so rarely. But in larger cities it may not be so scarce t retailers. In Miyazaki I have never seen it.

[H.Tanaka]

Apolemichthys xanthopunctatus, Goldflake Angel, 8cm, and a juvenile (25mm) that grew to this larger one (lower right; some 5cm).

This angel is not rare in market, and juveniles recently became popular.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564ApXan8cm.jpg

[marinebetta]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7261572#post7261572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H.Tanaka
Oh, not so many !
But I try to show ALL the photos (including not so rare ones) here one by one.

Here is a new comer to the genus Centropyge, a possible new species from Rowley Shoals. Photo courtesy by Rudie Kuiter.
It has been regarded as a varian of C. eiblii, but seemingly different in having a broad black area on posterior part of body. It looks like also C. vrolikii but has dark bands on anterior part. Some cases have orange bands there. At present it is known only from Rowley Shoals.
Now it is examined by some ichthyologists.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CeSp6cm.jpg
That's an awesome looking pygmy angel, Dr Tanaka.:eek1:

Do you, by any chance, have pictures of the new C. abei ?

[H.Tanaka]

I am sorry; there is a photocopy in B/W that was sent to me by fax from a German friend last week. I am now asking for copies from Italy and maybe next week I can get color copies from them. It was described in Aqua, Italy.

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7261572#post7261572 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H.Tanaka
Oh, not so many !
But I try to show ALL the photos (including not so rare ones) here one by one.

Here is a new comer to the genus Centropyge, a possible new species from Rowley Shoals. Photo courtesy by Rudie Kuiter.
It has been regarded as a varian of C. eiblii, but seemingly different in having a broad black area on posterior part of body. It looks like also C. vrolikii but has dark bands on anterior part. Some cases have orange bands there. At present it is known only from Rowley Shoals.
Now it is examined by some ichthyologists.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CeSp6cm.jpg

Dr. Tanaka, are you aware that a specimen of this fish is pictured in Scott Michael's Reef Fishes Volume 3 on page 251? It is listed as Centropyge cf. vrolikii, meaning at that time it was an unconfirmed variant of the half-black angel... whatever the taxonomic designation, it's an awesome fish! What other Centropyge species are found at Rowley Shoals?

Also, page 233 of the same book has a couple of photos of C. vrolikii/ C. eibli hybrids... notably different but interesting nonetheless...

[H.Tanaka]

copps,

In Rowley Shoals are Angelfish species shown below as far as Centropyge is concerned;
bicolor, bispinosa, and eiblii (this fish).

In the nearby Scott Reef/ Seringapatam Reefs;
bicolor, bispinosa, flavicauda, nox, tibicen, and vrolikii
(after Allen & Russell, 1986).

Then I suspected that the fish seems a hybrid between eiblii x vrolikii; the latter seems scarce in Rowley Shoals, but it is not found there at all.

[marinebetta]

Dr Tanaka, I was browsing the blue harbor (http://www.blueharbor.co.jp/home2.html) website and it seems like they are selling what looks like RCT bred juvenile C. debelius :eek1: . I can't read japanese and babelfish doesn't seem to work on their site.....but they sure don't look like interruptus to me! Can you confirm this?

[NexDog]

Where on their site do you see these fish? Whole thing is in frames so one URL is for all. Right click and select show only this frame and paste in the URL here. :)

Hiroyuki directed me to a young adult Regal Angel today (9cm). My family and I met up with him and his sons on Saturday and he gave me copies of two of his book. Extremely kind and knowledgeable guy. :)

[Maximus]

[QUOTE]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7282044#post7282044 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by marinebetta
Dr Tanaka, I was browsing the blue harbor (http://www.blueharbor.co.jp/home2.html) website and it seems like they are selling what looks like RCT bred juvenile C. debelius :eek1: . I can't read japanese and babelfish doesn't seem to work on their site.....but they sure don't look like interruptus to me! Can you confirm this? [/QUOTE

Woa!! My suspicions were true!! At WMC, Mike Paletta, Sanjay, and a few others were talking about a rumor about RCT breeding debelius angels. Hot Damn!!

[Maximus]

OMG! Could this be them?
http://www.blueharbor.co.jp/bbs2/img-box/img20060301210656.jpg

[Julio]

How much are they goign for?

[copps]

Group order anyone?
http://xs100.xs.to/xs100/06181/blue_harbor.jpg (http://xs.to)

[Julio]

How can they ge their hand on Genicanthus Personatus? arent' they protected?

[copps]

The species itself is not protected, but rather the waters where it is most common and available at shallower depths... It has been recorded and collected many times on Oahu, although I'm unaware of where most are collected that go to Japan...

[michindi]

im up for a group order..lol

[H.Tanaka]

Hi, all.

One of the pages of 'Blue Harbor' web was shown (with many fishes) but please note, these fishes were once there (these several to ten years, and its a collection).

They dealed in Centropyge debelius (adult) some time ago, and also recently showed a photo of juveniles (bred in Hawaii) but this time they do not sell any juvenile, for RCT (Oahu) has succeeded with only several specimens; maybe they start to sell soon.

The Tiger Angel is the same with that I showed, and also the Blue Potter's too. The latter was sold at Blue Harbor and someone bought it but soon handed it to another firend and finally now at 'Earth' in Kyoto. Four years ago I photographed these two.

[Julio]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7283986#post7283986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
The species itself is not protected, but rather the waters where it is most common and available at shallower depths... It has been recorded and collected many times on Oahu, although I'm unaware of where most are collected that go to Japan...

Hey John,
How shallow are these guys know to venture?

[copps]

In the northwest Hawaiian Islands (not Kauai :D) they are found at much shallower depths of around 30 feet where in places they are common... In the main Hawaiian Islands they're very rare at scuba depths, but there are numerous accounts of them from dive operators...

I'm sure the full-time Hawaii guys could elaborate more on their occurance in the main islands... many of the collectors there have their little secret places for collecting rarities...

[BGreene]

Genicanthus personatus can be found in the Main Hawaiian Islands (MHI), from Hawaii to Kauai, but is quite deep. I have seen them as shallow as 6m at Midway in the NWHI. In the MHI they are usually found closer to 100m, like the one illustrated.

-Brian
http://www.twilightaquatics.net/Genicanthus1.jpg

[H.Tanaka]

Hi Brian,

How deep ! How does it look in the depth ? Just a plain white or bluish hue ?

[nbd13]

Wow Brain, nice specimen! Do you have any pics of the males?

Did you get my mutiple emails? I sent about 3-4 of them.

Dr. Tanaka- any word on the picture of the Centropyge abei?

thanks

Nick

[H.Tanaka]

nbd,

Centropyge abei is a simply colored but attractive. I roughly explained as follows,

cream body, whitish ventrally, upper 1/3 of body and head dark brown to black, a white vertical band behind head, caudal fin white, other fins yellow.

It is provisionally included in the the genus Centropyge.

Allen, Young & Colin. 2006 state that it is closest to Centropyge, but it has some similarities between Apolemichthys and Chaetodontoplus. Rich Pyle is now studying it and there is a possibility that a new genus will be born.

I will get the copy of aqua soon that features color photos.

[nbd13]

Dr. Tanaka- The Centropyge abei sounds really nice.

I look foward to the pictures :D

thanks

Nick

[Tremelle]

After reading this thread, I guess I am a rare angelfish collector. I have a Blueline, Chrysurus, Golden, and Multicolor in my tank. I guess I better up my homeowners insurance. :)

[michindi]

Tremelle.... I agree. I have a chrysurus and a interruptus angel. If I had the room I would love to add one more "rare" angel

[triggerfish1976]

As any tried keeping multiple Chaetodontoplus species in the same aquarium?
I currently have a Conspic. and I was also thinking of adding a blueline angel as well. My tank is 450gallon so I think I have the room but I have read it is best to try to vary the size of the specimans.

[michindi]

Its alway better to ad a bigger one then u already have. Where did you get your conspic.?

[triggerfish1976]

I ordered it from Old Town Aquariums in Chicago. I acctually found out about them from this post.

[michindi]

Wow thats cool. So how much did he/she run you? Also does Old Town Aquariums have a website.

[LargeAngels]

http://www.oldtownaquarium.com/

[bandedangel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7295731#post7295731 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by michindi
Tremelle.... I agree. I have a chrysurus and a interruptus angel. If I had the room I would love to add one more "rare" angel

I have two conspics in my reef - 3" & 7". The 7" came about a year after the the 3".

[nbd13]

bandedangel- what size tank?

thanks

Nick

[bandedangel]

ngd13 - 240gal.

[nbd13]

bandedangel- where did you get them from?

thanks

Nick

[revclyburn]

Hey NBD13

What is that beautiful angel in your avatar?

edwin

[nbd13]

Centropyge joculator.....

I need to take a new pic of him, he has grown since that pic.

thanks

Nick

[revclyburn]

Please do, and I see you have some ceramics and zeolit in one of your tanks, got any pics

edwin

[nbd13]

Click the red house ;)

just added a few today.

Nick

[moonpod]

http://homepage.mac.com/moonpod/.Pictures/New%20Tank/Fulltank0406.JPG
Reefceramic back walls. Pillar on the left

http://homepage.mac.com/moonpod/.Pictures/New%20Tank/Mature%20reefceramic.jpg
closeup of the Pillar. Essentially totally encrusted

[bluerug]

I just read the title and i would say if the clarion is acclimated right this is by far the best and easiest rare angel to own.

[coralite]

I would have to agree that the least owwned pomacanthid is Centropyge narcosis. I have never even heard of fanciers discussing this species.

Within the last few years I have seen 3-4 hot tomatoes (hotumatua), 2 clippertons, several clarions, several army tags (Apolemichthys armiatagei Hybrid between A. trimaculatus and A. xanthotis), plenty of interruptus, personatus, joculators, conspics and other Chaetodontoplus species.

What I havent seen is debelius, nahackyi, kingi or guezi. The clippertons i saw were the result of a hit and run job which bagged about 50 specimens. I am pretty certain the hawaiian specimen originated from this same collection.

[BGreene]

The H. limbaughi at the Waikiki Aquarium did not come from that group, but rather a very small collection during a research trip about 10 years ago. It was hand carried back to Hawaii by the collector.

-BGreene

[coralite]

Thanks for clearing that up Brian. Now that I have read through this entire thread I too look forward to seeing the C abei pictures.

[H.Tanaka]

This is Centropyge abei. It is a photocopy from aqua, Italy, and you should ask for the copy if want to know more about it. I highly recommend you to subscribe to this journal that shows many new species in every issue.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CeAbei.jpg

[nbd13]

Dr. Tanaka-

Thanks for the photo, it looks like and interesting specimen.

Do you know if any have made it into the trade yet? Or is the just for research purposes only?

Thanks again for getting the photo, I will have to loo into that journal that you reccomend.

Oh any more pictures of some rare angels?:)

thanks Dr. Tanaka

Nick

[BGreene]

Not in the trade yet....

[nbd13]

Thanks Brian.

Nick

[H.Tanaka]

I found a photo of Chaetodontoplus ballinae in a Japanese book.
It was imported over ten years ago but unfortunately was DOA. It seems a young adult but no data is available. No more aquarium specimen.

I forgot to mention about aqua: ask the managing editor Mr. Heiko Bleher for subscription. Vol. 11 (1), 2006 shows Centropyge abei and also Cirrhilabrus brunneus with color photos.

Many new fairies, flasher wrasse, damselfishes were described there.

heiko@pmp.it

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564ChBal.jpg

[achillesheel]

not as rare as some of the others but has anybody kept a male genicanthus bellus successfully? i just ordered a male for my female from www.twilightaquatics.com . brian says he's eating well and he's had him for about a month. i tried a pair a while back but couldnt get the male to eat.

[nbd13]

achillesheel- I am sure the specimen from Brian will be in top notch shape/condition.

If you have trouble go get a few fresh clams from the supermarket. Pop one open and toss it in...all my angels (5) love it. I use it to get the tougher angels to eat like regals for example....

Also, a lot has to do with proper decompression; since these are deeper water fish, they must be decompressed properly. Some are unfortunate and not decompressed properly.

I am sure Brian decompressed his specimen properly, you should not have a problem ;)

Dr. Tanaka- That is one fish I would love to have some time...too bad they are protected. It is such an intresting fish.

So, none have made it into Japan illegally over the years?

thanks

Nick

[H.Tanaka]

nbd,

Recent shipments has not included any 'rarity' that should not be treated as a pet.

[coralite]

Thanks for sharing those images. Is it me or does the C. abei resemble a small apolemichthys species? has it been formally been described as a Centropyge?

[H.Tanaka]

That's right.
It was assigned to the genus Centropyge but provisionally. It shares several features with Chaetodontoplus and also with Apolemichthys so the authors thought that a new subgenus would have been applied to it, but it was most close to Centropyge. Rich Pyle of Oahu is now studying the specimen and would publish his opinion soon.

[coralite]

Also, the colorations of the ballina and abei are somewhat similar. I wonder if its a case of convergence on a color scheme particularly suited to a similar type of environment. Reminds me of some of the St. Paul's queen angels that look strikingly similar to clippertons.

http://users.belgacom.net/allaboutfishes2/BestMarAngs_fichiers/Holacanthus_limbaughi.jpg

http://xs78.xs.to/pics/06171/ciliaris4.jpg

But i guess you could say the same for the bicolor and joculator and also for heraldi, lemonpeel, woodheadi, and trimaculata.

[Mark]

Jake, very cool to point out the similarity.

Reminds me that I still think the juvenile stage of chevron tangs is to mimic potters. Not identical, but perhaps evolution in progress.

http://www.captured-sea.net/Travis%20Potters%20Angel.jpg
http://www.reefseekers.com/PIXPAGES/Kona%202005/Chevron_tang_1.jpg

[H.Tanaka]

Centropyge abei was recorded in 110-155 meters depth in Palau and Indonesia (Sulawesi) and it suggests that this angel would be more widely spread.

There are similarities among several species of angelfishes, however color morphs of the Queen Angels from St. Paul's Rocks are results of inbreeding. Yes, surely some are very similar to Holacanthus limbaughi (they do not co-occur so there is no biological meaning).

Centropyge bispinosa varies upon localities and depths, especially those from Samoa are almost entirely orange, but they may return to norm color. I have no idea what the purpose is.

I will go to Tokyo next evening and hope to see rare angels, etc. as many as possible.

[nbd13]

Dr. Tanaka- Please take a camera along and take a few pictures of each rare angel, then post them here please :)!

thanks

Nick

[H.Tanaka]

YES, OF COURSE !
I already asked a friend in Tokyo and found some shops to go. I hope to visit public aquariums, too. Wait for a little while.

[nbd13]

Haha, thanks, I looke foward to the pictures Dr, Tanaka.

Nick

[achillesheel]

no bellus huh?

[nbd13]

achillesheel- what do you mean?

Nick

[coralite]

I guess the thing the that intrigues me about the similarities between the clipperton and st paul angels is that both those localities are very isolated. It is conceivable to imagine that the clipperton island angels are the result of a few individuals or a small population of clarions or passers which became isolated in clipperton island and inbred to become the species we recognize today. The similar color forms of st pauls queens lends credence to this idea.

here are some gratuitous images for you to enjoy.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/2584Mvc-016_f.jpg

[coralite]

once you get to a certain level of rare, the only thing left to seek out is either mated pairs or natural hybrids. I am particularly a fan of the latter as they can vary greatly in appearance and so many hybrid individuals are more one-of-a-kind than the rarest of angels species.

blueface majestic hybrid
http://www.tidalblue.com/jake/6747Navarchus7-03.jpg

[coralite]

personifer conspic hybrid

http://www.tidalblue.com/jake/sp1.jpg

[coralite]

potter flame hybrid
http://www.tidalblue.com/jake/centropyge_potteri_x_loricula_pyle.jpg

[coralite]

flagfin goldflake hybrid

http://www.tidalblue.com/jake/140393-DSCN8056Copy-embed.jpg

[nbd13]

Jake- Do you know how much the personifer conspic hybrid went for? I assume most of these hybrids go to Japan?

Nick

[RGBMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7347651#post7347651 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mark
Reminds me that I still think the juvenile stage of chevron tangs is to mimic potters. Not identical, but perhaps evolution in progress.

Potters angels and chevron tangs look very different from each other underwater. Their behaviours aren't anything alike, either.

[H.Tanaka]

nbd,

I suspect that at least the last three hybrids have been imported to Japan. See the web of a shop in Tokyo, and here is a photo of a hybrid angel sold there.

http://www.reef-kuki.com/fishandshrimps1.html

[coralite]

if you look on page three of reef kuki you can actually see the original image of the conspic hybrid. They also had this image of a fisher flame hybrid
http://www.reef-kuki.com/pics/f2938.JPG
and I think the image Tanaka wanted us to see is the lemonpeel hybrid
http://www.reef-kuki.com/pics/00large/f16L.jpg

[coralite]

this is an image of a supposed hybrid between an emperor and a koran
http://www.aquacraft.net/sf9906a.jpg

[H.Tanaka]

coralite,
The last one is great; I have never seen such a fish !

[coralite]

More random images of oddities for your enjoyment, unfortunately these are all dead

http://www2.bishopmuseum.org/PBS/images/JER/large/1432937402.jpg http://www2.bishopmuseum.org/PBS/images/JER/large/376948780.jpg http://www2.bishopmuseum.org/PBS/images/JER/large/930042242.jpg

[H.Tanaka]

I returned home last night; I took over 70 photos at one shop. I could not have seen any rare or unusual but some interesting species/ specimens to me. The shop seems one of the greatest one in Saitama Prefecture, just north of Tokyo, and I could see so many exotic butterflyfishes, angelfishes, anthias, wrasses, gobies, etc. in some hunfred tanks.

Here is a small, 3cm long Centropyge joculator with a small black spot on dorsal fin. It now seems not-rare fish in the aquarium trade but I think that such a small one cannot be seen so often.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CJoc3cm.jpg

[NexDog]

Welcome back, Hiroyuki. Did you get up to BORABORA?

[H.Tanaka]

Hi, Thanks.
No, unfortunayely I had no time to go Bora Bora; some three hours were needed to visit the B-Box aquarium in Saitama and ruturned to Tokyo. I could have enjoyed the B-Box so much and asked them to send several specimens of wrasses that would reach me tomorrow or on Wednesday.

Here is another shot in B-Box; one of the many tanks with a bunch of colorful live corals.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564B-Box.jpg

[NexDog]

I finally found the coral pages on B-Box. Now I have pages of new reasons to spend money. :D

[H.Tanaka]

This is a 3cm long juvenile Centropyge multicolor with a black spot on dorsal fin at B-Box Aquarium.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564CMult2cm.jpg

[keefsama2003]

hmmm guess im wondering if any new headway has been made and maybe more pics to be added

lets bring back the dead

[JCDelbeek]

Interesting thread .... some updates for you:

The Waikiki Aquarium has displayed the following rare/endemic fish species, some of which were considered rare or a new species at the time:

* = currently on display

Griffith's Angel
Goldflake Angel
Hotomatua angel
Chaetodon litus
Chaetodon smithi *
Chaetodon tinkeri *
Centropyge aurantia *
Centropyge colini *
Centropyge nahackyi *
Ostorhinchus sp. *
Pseudochelinus ocellatus *
Clipperton Angel *
Siganus uspi * (21 years in collection)
Genicanthus personatus * (two pairs, one from 1992 one from 2000).
Prognathodes sp. *
Holanthias fuscipinnis *
Bodianus sanguineus *
Leafy and Weedy seadragons *
Cirrhilabrus rosefascia
Pseudanthias carlsoni
Rhinopias sp. (Hawaiian species)
Boarfish (Antigonia sp.) (deepwater butterfly-like fish)
Bearded Armorheads *
Priolepis aureoviridis (Hawaiian endemic goby)
Antennarius drombus (Hawaiian endemic frogfish)
Cosmocampus balli (endemic HI pipefish)
Desmoholocanthus arcuatus
Liopropoma aurora
Paracheilinus bellae
Cirrhilabrus rhomboidalis

Maybe Bruce Carlson can add to this list ...

Also, most of the C. interrupta in the US market are now coming from RCT.

[thor32766]

wow never seen some of these angels before.

[Vili_Shark]

Ohhhh myyyyy...

I would do alot of funny things to get a couple from that list.

B.sanguineus
C.hotumatua
and H. limbaughi

:eek1:

[keefsama2003]

Genicanthus personatus are what i want for my 300 right now. would love a pair

[H.Tanaka]

Hello Charles,

I am glad that you have shown the list from Waikiki Aquarium. It is very nice and I have never sen some of them. I know that Centropyge interrupta has successsfully been raised in Oahu.

Well, the Cirrhilabrus roseafascia also is shown in the list, and is it the ones I show here ? I have been keeping a male of 16 cm long from Cebu. Your specimen came from Fiji if I remeber well.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/122564Rose.jpg:p

[JCDelbeek]

Aloha Tanaka-san, yes the roseafascia came from 400 ft in Fiji.

Aloha!
Charles

[JCDelbeek]

Should the title of the table be changed ... its says "What rare species of angel to you HAVE?" Shouldn't it be: ""What rare species of angel do you wish you HAD?

[H.Tanaka]

Hello,

Thanks for the reply and yes, I agree with you.

Aloha, Hiroyuki

[coralite]

Charles, is it true that the waikiki aquarium has unsuccessfully attempted to maintain peppermint angels in the past? I remember hearing of this shortly after C. boylei was described but this information was never confirmed by waikiki aquarium staff.

[JCDelbeek]

You know I don't know for sure, but I doubt it ... at least I have never heard anything about that since I have been here (1995). I did pass that list I posted by Bruce Carlson and asked him to add anything I may have missed and he did not mention it then.

Aloha!
JCD

[copps]

Hey Charles! Great to see you here at RC... A couple of questions to pick your brain... can you elaborate on the story behind the H. limbaughi you guys have? I've spoken with both you and Bruce about it (how he had it in his office years ago when it was small), but with all the fish stories I don't remember the details... I think the audience here would appreciate it! Also, what other aquariums have one? FYI here is a shot I took of it a couple of years ago for those who haven't seen them... not the prettiest, but definately one of the least seen shallow water angels...
http://xs76.xs.to/pics/06151/clipperton.jpg (http://xs.to)

Also, what can you add about the blue variant of C. potteri that Hiroyuki has photos of? I saw one on a wholesaler's list a few years ago, and the only information I've heard is that they were collected in deep water off of Kona... can you elaborate at all? Also, ever seen a potter's flame hybrid? Again for reference, here is one of the images...
http://xs77.xs.to/pics/06162/blue_potters.jpg (http://xs.to)

Lastly, have you tapped into Frank about getting a couple of his little debelius angels we talked about earlier in the thread? If not, tell him to make his own water!:rollface:
http://xs200.xs.to/xs200/06182/debelius.jpg (http://xs.to)

Sorry to ask so much Charles, but this is revenge for you talking about your commute to work compared to mine in DC here (which consists of walking to work up Waikiki Beach)...:rollface:

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7597442#post7597442 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Vili_Shark
Ohhhh myyyyy...

I would do alot of funny things to get a couple from that list.

B.sanguineus
C.hotumatua
and H. limbaughi

:eek1:

Well, on the Bodianus sanguineus you're only one step away... Brian Greene (Bgreene here in the thread) collects them himself... here's a shot of one of the ones he collected... chump change compared to the pair of Z. gemattum...:mad:
http://xs102.xs.to/xs102/06255/sanguineus.jpg (http://xs.to)

[Mark]

How did you get that picture? I took that picture with my old nikon coolpix several years ago, on an outing with Jake, aka Coralite.

[copps]

Apparently Jake submitted it to Tom of justrarefish, as it's on their website in their gallery to this day with the only comment being "submitted by Jake" at this link (http://justrarefish.com/html/photo_gallery_2_4.html)

Can you elaborate on this fish only system? I found it odd and a bit comical the aquascaping of driftwood and fake corals in a system with thosands of dollars in fish...

[Mark]

That would be Tom's tank back in 2000/20001. I have more pics at home I can upload. His collection at the time was pretty amazing. It was definitely set up as a Fish-Only with no live rock or other inverts, so that he could treat the tank with medication if needed. Other fish missing from that picture, are a full grown interruptus, 3 Conspics(I think 3, maybe only 2), wrought iron butterfly, and some others.

In the pic you posted, you can see a flagfin/goldflake hybrid behind the gemmatum.

Tom's a nice guy in person, he donated a Hotumatuas Angel for our annual reef conference to be raffled off(saltwateru.com).

[Vili_Shark]

Hi,
Brian Greene have B.sanguineus right now?

[copps]

Yeah he has a few more images there... you could see the armatagei, two conspics, and the wrought iron... phishybusiness has had a wrought iron and an armatagei both for a while now that have gone through price drops...
http://xs302.xs.to/xs302/06255/wrought_iron.jpg (http://xs.to)
http://xs302.xs.to/xs302/06255/conspics.jpg (http://xs.to)

Any word on the outcome of the hotamatuas? Actually Charles or anyone else who can elaborate... I've never seen them successfully kept at warm temperatures... can you elaborate on your experience Charles?

Vili Shark... contact Brian through his site at www.twilightaquatics.net where he has them listed as "coming soon, reserve yours today"

[coralite]

Back then Tom's tank was a 220 or so. It had the largest available eheim canister filter on it, about the size of a 5 gallon bucket, a lg size sump with bioballs and a puny skimmer w/ozone and a generously sized UV sterilizer. Even though the equipment seemed undersized he maintained it religiously and he performed weekly water changes.
I found another image of the sanguineus w/ a nice headshot. Keep in mind that the captive rarity of the species he kept was much higher when he had them and he collected many fish species before their descriptions were available in popular literature. can you name all of the other fish in the image? there are 12 in all. BTW, his tank was not that crowded, its just that 90% of the fish were in 10% of the tank in anticipation of being fed.
http://www.tidalblue.com/jake/sangface.JPG

[Vili_Shark]

For the long term , It's quite loaded for a 220G tank no matter how you look at it, but he keeps a sterile enviroment there.
Is this tank still exist?

Very impressive collection though , reminds me a lot of the aquariums you can see in Hong Kong and China.

When was the last time anybody spotted hotumatua for sale?
They're usualy out for sale around December, but I didnt see or heard of any on last winter.

I e-mailed Mr.Greene hope to get an answer soon.

[JCDelbeek]

That tank looks more like an overcrowded jail cell than an aquarium. :rolleyes:

I forgot one fish on my list ... Wraught Iron Butterflyfish, we had four at one time.

The Clipperton Angel was collected in 1998 at 100' using handnets and hand carried back by air ... a very tough fish. They are very common there at all depths.

The blue striped Potter's I have never seen .. we do have one on display for over 10 years that looks similar but not like that pic.

The Debelius are from the Indian Ocean ... we only display Pacific Ocean fish. Frank has only had a limited run of these fish so far. They have a VERY long larval period .... over 100 days.

Aloha!
Charles

[coralite]

Toms fish really did have quite a bit of room to move but they crowded in to the same spot to compete for food.

I thought the waikiki clipperton was from the 1998 collection. from what I can recall, about 50 were collected by a gentleman working out of Florida. I think roughly 15 were sold stateside for around $3500 and the majority of the remainder were sold in Japan for $5000. Tom purchased a pair and FWIW, the 5-6" fish he had were GORGEOUS! They were lustrous blue with shiny lavender faces, a metallic blue edge on the margin of the dorsal and anal fins and a bright white tail. How large is the waikiki specimen and is it really as drab as the picture shows?

It seems counterintuitive that a fish with an isolated distribution such as the debelius angel would have such a long larval period. With a 100 days to float in the plankton wouldnt debelius angels occur over a broader range? That is unless the currents are unfavorable for distributing larvae to suitable settling sites but then wouldnt the species evolve to have a shorter larval duration?

[JCDelbeek]

Our fish did not come from that collection of fish, they were from someone working with the Smithsonian on a research trip to Clipperton Island ... it was not a commercial collection trip. I know the one you are talking about though.x

Ours is now about 10 inches or so ... juveniles are more colourful ... ours is a deep metallic blue with a small white spot on each side and very large, broad white caudal fin, and white pelvics. The juveniles have two blue strips through the head plus the really small ones have blue vertical body bars and a "crown"; common in this genus.

To answer a previous poster ... this is the only one on display in the world as far as I know. The Birch Aquarium in San Diego had one but it died several years ago. I don't know if any hobbyists have this fish in the private aquaria. Anybody know of anyone who has one? Tanaka-san ... anyone in Asia?

The long larval stage could simply be a result of not providing the proper settlement cues or some other environmental condition. It is very common for the settlement time to become shorter and the number of fry to increase, as rearing methods are adjusted and improved.

Aloha!
JCD

[Aquabucket]

I would have to say any fish collected by Richard Pyle. I was fortunate to see him speak and later had dinner with him. He's been offered up to $25,000 for some of the angels he's found even though most of what is collected at those depths does very poorly in captivity.

[jmicky41]

JC Delbeek, thanks for the behind the scenes peek last week. I really enjoyed your new arrivals.

[coralite]

I forgot i had this hot tomato pic in my gallery
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/2584fliptomato.jpg

[keefsama2003]

very interesting man this thread is the best.

getting good insight on alot of specimins that i think 98% of the ppl in here would love to see in person.

good work guys and thanks for all the insight

[H.Tanaka]

This is an approximately 18cm long Chaetodontoplus septentrionalis (Blue-lined Angelfish) from Vietnam. It may take sponges but it did not accept any food offered in my tank. It is too large to feed on successfully but is a graceful addition to any tank.

The color pattern on face is complicated and it seems a link between C. septentrionalis (from southern Japan to Taiwan) and another valid C.chrysoceplalus (from Indonesia).

The specimens from Vietnam need DNA study.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/12256418cm-1.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/12256418cm-2-med.jpg

[Tremelle]

That is a beautiful Blueline. It is one of my favorite angels. I got mine from LiveAquaria.com. It ate everything that hit the water right out the bag. I had it for about a month before a local aquarist made me an offer I could not refuse for it. I am looking to purchase another one soon. It is the fish in my avatar.

The face on mine had more blue and fully colored. I read somewhere that the males had the fuller blue faces.

[coralite]

Those are gret pics Tanaka. I have seen specimens of bluelines from vietnam with solid blue faces. These were often XL and I assumed they were males specimens cause they fought with each other but they would tolerate another blueline w/ less adorned faces.

[Tremelle]

Here is a pic of mine, which had the fuller blue face.

http://www.sykesweb.com/images/blueline3.jpg

[H.Tanaka]

Thanks all,

The pattern on face depends on individual, from complicated to plain blue with brownish spots, but these cannot be seen in this species from Japan to Taiwan or Hong Kong.

C. chrysocephalus is much more complicated in coloration on side as you know.

[Vili_Shark]

Hello Tanaka san,
What happened to the blue Line? did you feed him sponges?

[H.Tanaka]

Hello Villi-Shark,

I tried all the items I had but it accepted a single time frozen shrimps but after that it did not take the same foods at all. No sponges then.

[Vili_Shark]

So the fish died?
Or did it survive from the live rocks?

[H.Tanaka]

Eventually it died in a month.....

[copps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7149626#post7149626 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
and then you've got rare varieties of the common fish such as the all yellow and white xanthic regal angel...

Following my earlier comment up with a photo! Ever seen one of these there in Japan Hiroyuki?
http://xs302.xs.to/xs302/06263/xanthic_regal.jpg (http://xs.to)

[H.Tanaka]

Thanks for the beautiful photo.

I have never seen such a xanthic fish before my eyes. These variants rarely enter our market mainly in Tokyo if available and we added some pics in our book. Shown there are those from the Maldives (photo by Rudie Kuiter) and the Solomon Islands (by a diving team of Casey Mahaney & Astrid Witte).

[NexDog]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7626896#post7626896 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by H.Tanaka
This is an approximately 18cm long Chaetodontoplus septentrionalis (Blue-lined Angelfish) from Vietnam. It may take sponges but it did not accept any food offered in my tank. It is too large to feed on successfully but is a graceful addition to any tank.

The color pattern on face is complicated and it seems a link between C. septentrionalis (from southern Japan to Taiwan) and another valid C.chrysoceplalus (from Indonesia).

The specimens from Vietnam need DNA study.


http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/12256418cm-1.jpg

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/12256418cm-2-med.jpg
Hitoyuki, if you ever see one online in Japan, please let me know!

[H.Tanaka]

Hi Laurence,

Yes, I will inform you as soon as possible, but I should ask you about the specimen you need. Do you need a normally colored one? Or those from Vietnam ?

The latter, however, is always too large to keep successfully or may nip polyps of your precious corals, and also it will require much cost; I bought it some US$110,- (at Papi !). Anyway I will inform you when I found.

[NexDog]

I'd like a sub-adult or juv if possible. Any type is fine as long as it's small enough.

By the way, on Sunday I received a 1" Red Sea Regal Angel baby from BoraBora. I have never seen such a specimen available anywhere. Cost 35000Y delievered though - ouch!

If you could tell Papi that I'm after one and to hold one if they get one I'd be most grateful. :)

[JCDelbeek]

Given some of the recent comments about how long these fish survive, I feel somewhat compelled to comment, forgive me if I come across as judgemental. I find it disturbing that these fish are being treated more as collectables than as living animals with the intent of being kept for the remainder of their natural lives. Too often I see people bragging of how they have kept a "difficult" to keep fish for "months" so they are really easy to keep.

I don't feel it is right to purchase these adult lined angels when it is well known that they do not survice for long. It is most likely that these facial markings are the signs of maturity and one could do just as well to acquire a juvenile, with a greater chance of survival and grow it to maturity to achieve the same colouration. Since angels can live for 30-40 years I think the onous should be on the aquarist to provide the means for these fish to live a normal lifespan.

Stepping off soapbox.

Aloha!
Charles

[alikatoes]

I would have to agree with the above. Large angels with specialized diets are difficult to feed and care for. Why risk eliminating the source of more juvi's. The breeders should be left in the ocean to procreate, that will benifit our industry and the natural ecosystems.

Something should also be said about the collectors who knowingly supply such specimens. On the topic of rare angels, Adult Bandit angels from Hawaii are known for poor survival in captivity, yet some divers still collect them to make a few bucks. Very very bad... Anything over 5" should be a no no for Bandits. The moral local wholesalers wont even buy bandits over 5" but there are some that dont feel the same.

Hey Charles, could you share some knowledge about bandit angels and how a collector could be more responsible with this particular species (captive care included)? I occasionally pick up some small ones (I have a 3" in my tank) and I have in the past (very very ignorant) captured some larger ones. As I learned about the species I understood that large specimens decompress very poorly and if they survive that they usually starve to death. If anybody out there is collecting any rare angels, be aware of similar problems. Its not worth it!

"The world was not left to us by our parents, it was lent to us by our children". I hope my children can see juvi rare fish one day.

[JCDelbeek]

Those who are experienced with decompressing fish do a very good job with bandit angels. Unfortunately, there are too many who are not experienced who really have no business collecting this fish. As with most angels, the smaller they are the better the chance of getting them to feed. Even then they can stop eating for weeks and then start again.

Fortunately, the fish is not rare and there are populations of these fish out of reach of most collectors.

The best advice is to get the fish eating before shipping it out. Those that refuse to eat after three weeks should be released. Those that eat should then be treated, fasted and then shipped out. NEVER release fish that have been treated with antibiotics back to wild, especially those species that are food fish when larger e.g. goatfish.

Aloha!
Charles

[alikatoes]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/524/80231Holo.JPG




Heres my little bandit. I know its a horrible picture compared to all the nice ones yall been posting. My male Crosshatch trigger decided to stick his head in the picture. I am holding the a crosshatch pair, flame wrasse harem, and the bandit angel for my own 150gal fish only tank.

Hey Charles, what are the implications of releasing medicated fish? Are there concerns of bioaccumulation if they are consumed? Could you elaborate a little?

[JCDelbeek]

Some medications are not meant for human consumption and you don't want to release a fish that may carry bacteria that have become resistant to an antibiotic. Its a big issue in aquaculture at the moment.

Aloha!
Charles

[pennyguy23]

Can anyone just go out in the ocean and collect fish. I see more and more people stating they are collecters. Don't you have to have a liscense or something?

Great thread by the way. I love angels and like hearing what everyone thinks about them and I really like to see and hear about the rare ones. Its hard to find info on them.

[JCDelbeek]

You need a license but the type depends on whether you are collecting for private use only or commercially. In the US, as far as I know, all you need to do is pay the fee and you get a license. In Australia, the number of collecting licenses are controlled and not easy to get.

Aloha!
Charles

[Kahuna Tuna]

This is a great thread, awesome pics everyone. Here's a pic of my current fish, a flagfin angel. Not a rare angel by any means but somewhat unusual to get a nice healthy eating flag.
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/1583mini-flagfin5.JPG

I really love angels and always strive to give them the best environment possible and I consider all of my fish pets rather than collectibles. I agree that many angel species should be left in the sea especially as they are one of those fish that is prone to cyanide collection. I always try to buy mine from localities that use proper collection techniques regardless of any extra expense.

[JCDelbeek]

Here is a pic of the one of our C. nahackyi in a holding tank .... it is about 3 cm long.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/14154fish2.jpg

[nbd13]

Charles,

Where did you get that C. nahackyi from?

I have been looking for one and have come up empty every time.

What are your thoughts about relating the C. nahackyi with the C. multicolor? I have spoken with a few people that think the C. nahackyi is on it's way to be a new species. The people I spoke with think that the C. nahackyi are closely related to the C. muticolor.

I would be interested to see a DNA study done on both species.....

Could you tell me what you think?

thanks!

Nick

[nbd13]

I forgot to add, what are you feeding the young C.nahackyi? Very beautiful specimen you have there!

How many do you have in your facility currently?

thanks again.

Nick

[coralite]

I too think that the nakackyi and multicoor seem only slightly removed from each other. Dr. Brian Bowen of HIMB recently published a paper on the speciation of the Atlantic pigmy angelfishes from a probable acanthops-like ancestor so this seems like it would be a perfect project for him.

I am also a big fan of the flagfin angelfish. They are not that hard to get but long-term captive specimens in prime health are very rare IMO. You gotta love those blue lips!

[JCDelbeek]

Brian Bowen is working on the genetics of this fish. I will tell you more about this fish when the exhibit is open. Until then .... :-)

Aloha!
Charles

[Angel*Fish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7664219#post7664219 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JCDelbeek
Here is a pic of the one of our C. nahackyi in a holding tank .... it is about 3 cm long.

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/14154fish2.jpg What a beauty! It has a juvenile look to him... is he an adult?

[Angel*Fish]

Oh, sorry --- I was so captured by the photo I didn't read the accompanying info. Adorable little thing - glad it's in good hands! :D